Enough is Enough
So I have my Google Reader with my updates of various blogs. Today I finally read this one and decided I'm done with Cartoon Brew. I'll be honest, 1 out of every 40 posts is interesting to me. Otherwise it's a total waste of my time and attention. Besides, they don't need me as a reader with all of the hits they get, haha. I wish we had Seward Street back to give us the meat and potatoes of quality character animation news. The stuff that gets you excited about this living art form. Cartoon brew does not excite me about animation at all. We need another forum for animation news and discussion to be honest. Cartoon brew should be an animation history site. Until then, Jim has this amazing story blog to read and catch up on for those who haven't seen it (I didn't realize how long he's had it!).
And about the article, you have to admit that Dreamworks brings an edge to this industry that makes it healthy for everyone. You can have a beef with the management, but as Steve Pilcher once said at a lecture, if you tore away the executives from every studio they are all pretty much the same, full of nice, talented artists who all want to make a good movie.
And about the article, you have to admit that Dreamworks brings an edge to this industry that makes it healthy for everyone. You can have a beef with the management, but as Steve Pilcher once said at a lecture, if you tore away the executives from every studio they are all pretty much the same, full of nice, talented artists who all want to make a good movie.
Labels: animation
posted by THE samacleod around 9:39 AM
21 Comments:
So some executive guy at Dreamworks doesn't know about animation. Their main job is to make sure the money comes in and to get the "right people" to do the voices. We know where the real magic comes from. :)
Thanks for the heads up on the story blog!
Wow...it looks like CB updated the article to include information about your criticism!
Hey Steve!
Here is the comment that I posted on the Brew in case it gets edited or "Moderated", which happens a lot with my comments:
Why are you picking on Macloud?
You have your opinion, he has his. This sort of thing makes the Internet go round.
The pettiness evident in your little addendum should be beneath you.
With that unwarranted personal attack, you have revealed an immaturity that I've suspected for some time.
Bad Brew indeed.
There you go. Looking forward to meeting you in June when I start!
Out of the sillyness emerges a new blog to read. Thanks for the link to StoryFanatic, Steve!
Steve -
Thanks for the double shout-out!
Re: Seward Street - I've been reworking it from the ground up over the past month or two. I'm really excited about it and hope to have it back up and running before the first week of June.
DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?!?!?!
I got here from the Brew post. I need to step up for Cartoon Brew, because it is a great source for animation-related news (the good and the bad), resources and historical information. I don't always agree with Amid either, but the useful information outweighs the stuff I personally disagree with.
I actually agree with his viewpoint on this one, though. If you're in a position to tell artists what to do, you should know something about their art form, and preferably have at least some experience doing a job similar to theirs. I work in a tech company and ALL of our upper-level executives and managers, the guys who tell us engineers what to do, came from engineering backgrounds themselves. This is how normal companies work. It seems like animation companies are the exception. Maybe live action film and other entertainment companies have similar issues? After all, everyone thinks they know the best way to make entertainment, even if they have no skills or understanding of how it's made.
Stand your ground. I visit CB for Jerry and usually ignore the other dribble. It's easy to tell from the topic titles whether it's a Jerry article or an Amid.
It always amazes me how little the 'aniamtion' community seems to know about what the general public likes.
Shrek is highly regarded by the general audience and for good reason.
AND anyone who believes that those at DW aren't trying their hardest each time to make art (including JK) are fools.
kris: no offense, but what are you actually saying here: "If you're in a position to tell artists what to do, you should know something about their art form"?
Do you think Jeffrey Katzenberg, because he recounted an OLD story about the days in-what was it? 1985?--that he was assigned(NOT sought, but was assigned)the animation department to manage--are you thinking that because he admitted that he knew nothing about animation at the beginning of his job that after 10 years, numerous hit movies that he was(in an executive position)responsible for getting made, which changed forever the landscape of the industry--you think he STILL doesn't know "anything" ?
Excuse me, but that's both naive-and nuts. Please, if you care enough to have an opinion read a bit further than a one-sentence quote. Good grief! How I hate it when things are taken out of context!
FWIW JK has also been quoted-often-that he rereads "Illusion of Life" every year. That one never seems to make it into the tiresome bashfests. Funny, isn't it? Not really? Hmm.
This is such an old meme. I have zero interest in debating it because clearly there are just too many people who have never worked for Katzenberg at either Disney or Dreamworks who are certain that they know ALL about the man, how he operates and who he is. Anything and everything in every DW film is apparently all him-and of course, that's a "bad" thing. Well, none of that is true. If anyone with these opinions looked any further than one quote they'd read and hear(via podcast) a heck of a lot of top animation people, presently at every studio, who praise Jeffrey's drive, interest and dedication whatever their other issues(and artists ALWAYS have issues-that's our job, really-to try our personal best in a collaborative medium).
Personally I will just say one thing as I don't want to debate the merits of the films themselves(a hopeless task on the internet):
In every instance when I've pitched to Jeffrey he was always totally focused, and extremely respectful of myself and the other artists pitching. He's openly, outwardly appreciative of our work no matter if the pitch was a success or a bomb-he's always acknowledged the labors of the story artist and thanks them in the room in front of everyone. He was gracious. I appreciated that. He's also smart. I appreciate that, too. I don't know...that's about all I want to say. I have to believe--I DO believe--that it's a very good thing for the industry that Dreamworks animation was started and exists. I also believe that every film has the potential to be great. That's how I try to approach my job and I know it's true for all the artists that are my friends at Dreamworks, just as true as it is at other studios.
When I read certain kinds of comments the overriding thing I often get is that the person writing them hasn't worked at a large studio. If you haven't, it's very difficult to understand just how complex the process is.
[Speaking of "right people" doing voices:does anyone here know Dave Smith, that big celebrity? He's a story guy. Chris Miller? Tom McGrath? Walt Dorm? Because these story guys are a big part of DW voice cast of "stars". Because they were funny and great at it.]
Hey Steve!
Ugh, Cartoon Brew, seriously makes me want to puke my EYES out sometimes. Amid can be so nasty and insulting and I don't know what he thinks it's going to accomplish. Stop it, jerkwad!
Dreamworks is a totally exciting studio with TONS of great talent and I hope I get to see you there this summer :)
Very well said, Jenny.
Hey man it was good seeing you this week. I'm with you on Cartoon Brew, I'm done with it, especially after Amid out right unprofessional and immature comment. I was so inspired visiting Dreamworks that day. Maybe Amid should do the same.
I was going to relate the Katzenberg article to Tom Schumacher and David Stainton, but it appears that you're all A) youngish and B) DreamWorkers, so I'll skip it.
My advice? Cartoon Brew is best in low to moderate doses. Perhaps once a week. Ironically I found this post through a link on the site.
As for Schumacher and Stainton, y'all should google them sometime ...
I agree with the sentiment - I see more and more often people within animation focusing on the mediocre and the non-sensical, rather than what is inspiring and creative.
If Amid and Jerry don't feel like they can do this, I'm sure there are artists who can.
"I wish we had Seward Street back to give us the meat and potatoes of quality character animation news. The stuff that gets you excited about this living art form. "
So you want us all to plug back into the Matrix, Steve?
You don't have to like everything that Amid posts on the Brew, but the fact remains that there's a lot of screwed up crap happening in American Animation, and it doesn't help that most of it is being decided by guys in suits instead of an artist/filmmaker with a personal vision. Katzenberg is a business man. He may be a nice guy in person, but ultimately he's gonna go with whatever he thinks will sell to an audience. I'm sure Kung Fu Panda will be interesting. But it's yet another talking animal movie with a big name comic celebrity doing the voice. That doesnt give Deamworks an edge, it makes them no differen't than any other major animation studio in the U.S. Why aren't there more filmmakers fighting for a personal vision like Brad Bird? If you all care so much about animation, why would you let a guy who had no interest in animation to begin with tell you what kind of movies to make? As Orson Welles said in "Ed Wood", "Visions are worth fighting for. Why spend your life making someone else's dreams?"
You can have whatever opinion you like, Steve, and feel free to express it, but don't come back to your blog and encourage people to stop reading the Brew because you got sensetive about what the other guy said. That's just stupid and wrong. You may not always like what Amid says, but the man has a voice and it matters.
I did a stint of work at the Australian Walt Disney Studio in the 90's. While I was there the old general manager left and the guy who had been the studio accountant up until then was put in charge. We (the employed artists) all moaned and groaned saying things like, "I can't believe they put a bean counter in charge."
What happened next was quite surprising to us. The studio slowly became a better place to work. Because the new boss conceded that he didn't know as much about the craft he was making a bigger effort to listen to his staff than the last guy. We were getting more input than we had ever gotten before. Over the following decade the studio went from strength to strength.
What makes a good leader is communication and not being a big head. Building an inclusive team instead of dictating everything. Setting clear boundaries so everyone knows where they stand and being insightful enough to know who you should and shouldn't listen to on different issues. As well as there being examples of non creative people running studios badly there are also many examples of creative people running studios badly, but we don't look at them and assume that all creative people would be bad at it because of one example.
Artist are humans too, the same basic rules apply, we like to be listened to and appreciated. You don't need to be an artist to do that. You could even go so far as to say its a waist to put real talented artists in charge because they don't get time to produce work any more. The person running a studio should be concerned with empowering their staff and creating a cohesive team environment, not sticking their nose in and undermining the people working on the film.
Like Cartoon Brew, I'm not a big fan of some of the Dreamworks films, but I don't believe its because one of their leaders doesn't animate.
I also sympathise Samacleod with your comments about what lies beneath the top layer of a studio. While I was working at Disney we were doing horrible direct to video sequels, when we tried something new or edgy we would get directed to tone it down. I remember once that the studio was directed by Michael Eisner to re animate the intro for Lion King 2 so that it was “more like the first one”. BUT, the studio was staffed by some of the most amazing artists and good people I have ever had the fortune to work with. They (we) were just doing our best to get by, making a living from our craft.
Artists can be good or bad at managing, non artists can be good or bad at managing. There are too many other factors involved for it to be the make or break issue.
I totally agree with you on the fading of the 'Brew. They used to post tons of animation news, now it's mostly animation history. Great films are coming out all over the world, but very little gets onto the Brew.
Also the comment moderation is totally ridiculous. It's not like they're just moderation vicious and hateful comments. They moderate SARCASM for crying out loud!
As for Dreamworks, I'm sorry but I sincerely do not believe they are capable of making a film I will enjoy. I say that only because there are always too many commercial interests that have to be satisfied. KFPanda is a great example of what I'm talking about. It looks good, it moves well, it might even be funny, but honesty is almost never focus-group friendly.
Japan, Korea, Europe are emerging as the only place where artists can make films. In America, corporations (excluding Pixar) make 90 minute long commercials for other corporations. That might sound bad, but in Toronto we haven't made an original theatrical feature since Rock & Rule!
Cheers,
Branch.
Cartoon Brew is lame. HA!
Cartoon Brew, as far as I'm concerned has become yet another biohazard zone for the Spumco-fed baggage that has poisoned just about every forum and blog in the internet animation community; the petty backbiting, the ridicule of even the most politely-expressed dissenting opinion, the sycophancy, the holier-than-thou elitism. It really gets tiresome, and I'm sure it's put off quite a few others as well.
To those who write in defense of Jeffrey: Your desire to defend your boss is admirable, and I respect your work and your dedication to your art. However, there is a difference between defending the vision of a studio and the lack of vision in its leadership. Love the empire though you may, the emperor has no clothes. I have worked for major studios for my entire career, including having worked for a long time for Jeffrey, and I can testify to witnessing more ego than artistry and more bravado than real intelligence in the man. I like him, but I do not think he is animation’s savior or greatest champion. I think he loves the business. I think he wants to feel like he loves the art, but I do not ever see it in his product, or in much of his behavior. Some of the most respected and beloved pioneers in the industry disliked him and the films he made, and grew to think less and less of him the more they knew him. I heard them say it over, and over, and over again. Jeffrey manages his producers through intimidation and supports the practices of bullies who, in spite of years of producing animation for Jeffrey, still know nothing about the art of filmmaking. I have been in those pitches, and yes, he is gracious and openly complimentary in those meetings. Yes, he is focused in those meetings. However, when the artists leave he mocks some of them and says terrible things, and I have heard it. This promotes an atmosphere of contempt among some of his senior staff members, and he does not stop them from denigrating artists in meetings and memos. The PM's give artists “grades” on a scale of A to F, and then rank them according to who they think should or shouldn’t be brought onto a film, and the weakest producers – who sadly have the most clout – take that advice; advice about who can be “managed” and who is “too artsy”. People would be nonplused by the grades given to them and the colleagues they most admire. With the exception of "Prince of Egypt" Jeffrey has yet to walk the walk, though he certainly is good at talking the talk. Jeffrey is very vocal, and as a result, he is fair game for commentary both negative and positive. That the ongoing commentary is mostly negative among artists who have worked for him, should tell us something. What is that old saw? When you hear it once it's just jealousy, when you hear it twice it's just rumor, but when you start hearing it three or more times from multiple sources, then pay attention. DreamWorks may indeed be good for the industry - and I believe it is, and DreamWorks artists may be among the best in the business, and I know that they are, but Jeffrey has done more harm to animation than he has done good for it. Nobody sets out to make bad movies, particularly not the artists employed on a production. I do not think Jeffrey sets out to make bad movies, either, but his taste has repeatedly proved to be questionable, and always seems a little sophomoric if not vindictive. He has good intentions, but after twenty years, he has yet to do much more than grandstand, bully, and brag. His management team is cruel, tactless, and frequently disrespectful of the artists they manage. Jeffrey’s lack of formal education shows, in both his lack of sophistication and his public bravado. He could surprise me, one day, but I think his legacy has already been established, and, sadly, it is not very impressive. That does not make the work of DreamWorks artists any less important, it just makes it equally as sad that their best contributions will never be seen in the finished product. Cartoon Brew and other online sources have every right to point this out. Amid may not be very gracious in his editorials, but at least he is not two-faced.
"That does not make the work of DreamWorks artists any less important, it just makes it equally as sad that their best contributions will never be seen in the finished product."
See Kung Fu Panda, my friend.
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